<HTML><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1416</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	11/30/99 4:50:49 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 30 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1416<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Winter War 27, February 4 - 6, 2000, Champaign, IL<BR>
Starport/5FW question...<BR>
"Aslan" name debate again<BR>
Old games for sale/trade<BR>
Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
Peer Review Problems (Re: Sci fi films)<BR>
Re: Sci fi films<BR>
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors<BR>
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors<BR>
List of Religions was RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1414<BR>
Vs: YNYBPTMTW (was re: LEO's)<BR>
RE: Police Ranks<BR>
RE: Sci fi films<BR>
Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fi films)<BR>
Religions<BR>
Re: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fifilms)<BR>
Fwd: Re: Log 1.15<BR>
Re: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fifilms)<BR>
Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
Lost Kieth Supplements going for 101<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:36:37 -0600<BR>
From: Donald McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com><BR>
Subject: Winter War 27, February 4 - 6, 2000, Champaign, IL<BR>
<BR>
The Winter War Gaming Convention is looking for Traveller judges for a wide<BR>
variety of games (I'll even let the unenlightened run TNE games) this coming<BR>
year.  We offer judges who run two games free entry to our convention for<BR>
the weekend, and the opportunity to participate in one of the world's oldest<BR>
gaming conventions!  I'd run a Traveller game, but I run the convention, and<BR>
my wife gets annoyed if I "play games" while she runs the registration desk!<BR>
<BR>
So come on!  We're not that far away from anywhere.  Well, maybe Russia, or<BR>
Australia, and the BITS folks might think its a bit of a distance.  But we<BR>
get alumni who come back from Japan for the con, and our Microsoft faithful<BR>
(they call it a "recruiting trip" to the University of Illinois).  Plus,<BR>
we're the con mentioned on the inner cover of Annic Nova... :)<BR>
<BR>
Find more information at: http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/homepage.html<BR>
<BR>
And what gamer could ask for more?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Don McKinney<BR>
Winter War Convention Chairman<BR>
304 E Sherman Box 1012<BR>
St. Joseph, IL  61873<BR>
(217) 469-9917<BR>
- --<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
= Donald E. McKinney, ConfigMgt 3x Team Lead         dmckinne@itds.com =<BR>
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =<BR>
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =<BR>
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =<BR>
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ =<BR>
========================================================================<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 99 20:52:47 +0000<BR>
From: igor@truserve.com<BR>
Subject: Starport/5FW question...<BR>
<BR>
I'm working on something for SJG, and could use some help with a little research...<BR>
<BR>
..does anyone know of any Class A or B (V or IV to GURPS players) starport in the <BR>
Spinward Marche that were downgraded to C or D due to battle damage in the Fifth <BR>
Frontier War?<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for any help you can provide,<BR>
<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
| Andrew Akins                                                       |<BR>
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |<BR>
| Work: andya@cms-ia.com - http://www.cms-ia.com/                    |<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
| IMTU: tg++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |<BR>
|       vi+ da+                                                      |<BR>
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |<BR>
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |<BR>
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:22:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman<BR>
rumors<BR>
<BR>
>C.S. Lewis is one of the foremost Christian apologist<BR>
>of this century.  Hisstories are seeped in Christian <BR>
>allegory and morality. For example in the Chronicles<BR>
>of Narnia the lion Aslan is a direct representative <BR>
>of Jesus Christ. (And yeas that's probably where the <BR>
>name Aslan came from for the Traveller race.)<BR>
<BR>
I thought we'd concluded that "aslan" was the Turkish<BR>
word for "lion."<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:19:12 +0000<BR>
From: iSteve <iSteve@outhere.f9.co.uk><BR>
Subject: Old games for sale/trade<BR>
<BR>
It's cleanup time!  (trans. if I don't sell this stuff, my girlfriend<BR>
heaves it in the bin...)<BR>
<BR>
I have the following to get rid of, though there's some old stuff I'm<BR>
looking out for, so I'll consider trade/part exchange.<BR>
<BR>
The games I'm getting rid of are:<BR>
<BR>
2300AD boxed set                  7.00<BR>
Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook    4.00<BR>
Equipment Guide                      4.00<BR>
Kafer Dawn                             3.00<BR>
Invasion                                   3.00<BR>
Colonial Atlas                          4.00<BR>
Ground Vehicle Guide             4.00    or 25.00 the lot<BR>
<BR>
Star Cruiser Boxed space combat game for the above, all counters, 1 map<BR>
missing (but the 2 maps were identical - a big photocopier will rectify<BR>
the missing map)  4.00<BR>
<BR>
Star Trek RPG (Games Workshop printing)    7.00<BR>
Star Trek III Sourcebook                               3.00<BR>
Star Trek IV Sourcebook                               3.00<BR>
Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise                  5.00<BR>
The Federation Sourcebook                           4.00<BR>
Trader Captains & Merchant Princes Source  4.00<BR>
Demand of Honour scenario                           3.00    or 25.00<BR>
the lot<BR>
<BR>
Bushido boxed set + Valley of the Mists campaign pack, plus selection of<BR>
Dragon magazines with oriental RPG articles, say 10.00 the lot.<BR>
<BR>
OR if you want to take the whole lot off my hands (go on, you know you<BR>
want to!) shall we say 50?<BR>
<BR>
Now to the trade part....I'm looking for GDW's Striker game, the<BR>
Twilight's Peak and Signal GK adventures, and Robots book (all for<BR>
Classic Traveller).  Give me a yell with what they're worth to you and<BR>
I'm sure we can do a deal....<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
iSteve<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:28:12 -0500<BR>
From: "Swordy (Colin MIchael)" <swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
Subject: Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
> I thought we'd concluded that "aslan" was the Turkish<BR>
> word for "lion."<BR>
<BR>
Which is where C.S. Lewis got the name, from whose character the boys at GDW<BR>
named a leonine race, about whom we concluded that they must smoke Camels,<BR>
wear turbans and have sandy claws, so Merry Christmas.<BR>
<BR>
- -Crusty<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:40:19 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: "Aslan" name debate again<BR>
<BR>
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >of Narnia the lion Aslan is a direct representative <BR>
> >of Jesus Christ. (And yeas that's probably where the <BR>
> >name Aslan came from for the Traveller race.)<BR>
> <BR>
> I thought we'd concluded that "aslan" was the Turkish<BR>
> word for "lion."<BR>
<BR>
It is.  CS Lewis took it from Turkish; the Traveller author in question (I<BR>
forget who it was) probably took it from CS Lewis, and *within the OTU<BR>
history* it's not stated whether the Solomani were thinking of CS Lewis or<BR>
were Turks when they gave that name to the Fteirle.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:05:58 -0800<BR>
From: Keith Johnson <keithalanjohnson@home.com><BR>
Subject: Peer Review Problems (Re: Sci fi films)<BR>
<BR>
At 09:48 AM 11/30/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>Star Fleet ships look good because these people are professionals, and<BR>
>they *want* to be there.<BR>
<BR>
The first time I saw Star Trek: the Next Generation, I thought they had a <BR>
lounge instead of a bridge.  The tactical station is a perfect location for <BR>
a DJ, and I always thought that an ensign should walk in with some drinks <BR>
for the well connected lounge lizards in the big chairs watching the wall <BR>
sized tv screen.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  The Scout Service functions via peer review, and it (like all <BR>
systems) has a potential for abuse. How many Scout ships/teams are turning <BR>
a blind eye to the abuses of their fellow Scouts so that those others will <BR>
turn a blind eye to their own abuses?  Beyond the ISS Lounge Ship <BR>
Enterprise, what about more serious violations?  What if other scouts (the <BR>
PCs) stumble on a group that is involved in grey market smuggling and <BR>
discover that they can profit if they don't report them to their <BR>
superiors?  What if they discover that those superiors are the ones <BR>
organizing the smuggling ring?<BR>
_________________________________________________________<BR>
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com<BR>
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    keithalanjohnson@home.com<BR>
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com<BR>
  IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+<BR>
_________________________________________________________ <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:18:42 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Sci fi films<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Shadow wrote:<BR>
>> With civilian ships, you'll see a lot less "spic and span", but<BR>
>> most of the time you'll see *neat*. Even when things are greasy<BR>
>> and grimy. Why? Because improperly stowed gear onbard a ship<BR>
>> can *kill* you. And even if it's "merely" lightweight personal<BR>
>> possessions in your cabin, you'll stow them or fasten them down<BR>
>> securely so *they* don't get damaged.<BR>
><BR>
> While I liked Outland I preferred the BBC series Star Cops  (only<BR>
> ran 9 episodes).<BR>
><BR>
>     "In space, anything you forget to  bring  with  you  will<BR>
>     kill you.  Anything you *do* remember  but  doesn't  work<BR>
>     will kill you.  If in doubt assume everything's going  to<BR>
>     kill you!"<BR>
><BR>
> Workers in zero-G had a 'swear box' and had to put in a $1  every<BR>
> time they let something drift away.<BR>
<BR>
That's nice idea!<BR>
<BR>
>> Y'know, that ought to be a "world classification" like<BR>
>> Non-industrial" or "Agricultural". Say, "habitable",<BR>
>> "marginal", "artifical". With the "habitable" types and the<BR>
>> "artifical" types *really* not understanding each other. The<BR>
>> marginals won't take things for granted, the way the habitables<BR>
>> do, but they aren't as paranoid as the artificals. (after all,<BR>
>> on a marginal world, forgetting (say) your filter mask may<BR>
>> "merely" put you in the hospital. <BR>
><BR>
> Hmmm, how about this:<BR>
><BR>
>     Mod = local Pop digit + TL digit - 17<BR>
>     (more than zero equals 0, less than -8 equals -8)<BR>
><BR>
>     Apply  Mod  as  penalty  to  reaction  rolls  of  spacers  to<BR>
>     outsiders.  Local Pop digit is *local* pop digit (so if on an<BR>
>     orbital base of 500  people  then  local  pop  digit  is  3).<BR>
>     Reduce penalty by sum of Zero-G-Environment skill, Vacc  Suit<BR>
>     skill, and years of service in Scounts or Navy.<BR>
><BR>
> Thus, the higher the TL the more robust the  environment  is  and<BR>
> thus the less paranoid spacers are.<BR>
<BR>
Well, remember, part of the paranoia is something that I don't think TL<BR>
advancements are going to change. Namely, the fact that it's *very*<BR>
hard to protect against morons whho *think* they know what they are<BR>
doing. Such people will cheerfully ignoring warning signs, flashing<BR>
danger lights, and even tell interactive voice systems that yes, they<BR>
really *do* want to dump the atmosphere from cargo bay two (this while<BR>
they are *in* cargo bay two!). <BR>
<BR>
The problem is that the very same functions that a moron will use to<BR>
kill people unintentionally are also functions that may be needed to<BR>
*save* lives (or property) in an emergency. And short of the sort of AI<BR>
Traveller doesn't have, you *can't* "limit" the controls enough to<BR>
prevent this sort of stupid user error. <BR>
<BR>
> I've found lots of engineering PCs (and non-engineering PCs  too)<BR>
> bash things as a first resort  ...  "Emergency  Repair  Procedure<BR>
> number 1" they call it.  Just to keep them on  their  toes,  next<BR>
> time they bash  some  misfunctioning  piece  of  equipment:  have<BR>
> something drop off!  <evil grin><BR>
<BR>
Or set off some *embarassing* alarm. Say the PC hits the Nav console<BR>
and the ship's collision alarm goes off. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:19:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>That was the *good* thing about a few of the original<BR>
<BR>
>Trek episodes.  They actually had a few where the <BR>
>aliens *didn't* fall all over each other to <BR>
>immediately accept advice from these "aliens" (the <BR>
>crew) that was contrary to centuries of the native <BR>
>culture. "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", for <BR>
>example.<BR>
<BR>
"You don't see the difference?  Isn't it obvious to<BR>
you?  Their fur is black with white spots.  All of<BR>
them have gray fur with large brown spots.  Our people<BR>
have brown fur with small gray spots.  It's a mark of<BR>
our racial superiority."<BR>
- --Rhoughghregz, Emissary of Rukh, to Sergei<BR>
hault-Oberlindes, watching stevedores unloading The<BR>
Emissary, somewhere in the Vargr Extents, ca. 1105.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:20:04 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors<BR>
<BR>
whoops!<BR>
<BR>
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
<BR>
>That was the *good* thing about a few of the original<BR>
<BR>
>Trek episodes.  They actually had a few where the <BR>
>aliens *didn't* fall all over each other to <BR>
>immediately accept advice from these "aliens" (the <BR>
>crew) that was contrary to centuries of the native <BR>
>culture. "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", for <BR>
>example.<BR>
<BR>
"You don't see the difference?  Isn't it obvious to<BR>
you?  Their fur is gray with brown spots.  All of them<BR>
have gray fur with large brown spots.  Our people have<BR>
brown fur with small gray spots.  It's a mark of our<BR>
racial superiority."<BR>
- --Rhoughghregz, Emissary of Rukh, to Sergei<BR>
hault-Oberlindes, watching stevedores unloading The<BR>
Emissary, somewhere in the Vargr Extents, ca. 1105.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:25:09 +0000<BR>
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com><BR>
Subject: List of Religions was RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1414<BR>
<BR>
At 15:12 -0500 30/11/99, Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com> wrote:<BR>
>	[Steve replied]  ObTrav: Is there a list somewhere of the collected<BR>
>religious permutations (or, let's say at least the ones that could be<BR>
>considered mainstream, e.g. more than 1 billion adherents) of the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
101 Religions by BITS is a good start. Available from Steve Jackson <BR>
Games and UK retailers.<BR>
<BR>
Dom (naturally, I'm biased)<BR>
<BR>
- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------<BR>
                  BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.<BR>
  http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk<BR>
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.<BR>
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:46:05 +0200<BR>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jussi_Kenkkil=E4?= <Jussi.Kenkkila@helsinki.fi><BR>
Subject: Vs: YNYBPTMTW (was re: LEO's)<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU><BR>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 3:53 PM<BR>
Subject: YNYBPTMTW (was re: LEO's)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> You know you've been playing too much Traveller when:<BR>
> <BR>
> You see the message header "LEO", and the first thing you think is,<BR>
> "Well, it doesn't have to be EARTH orbit..."<BR>
> <BR>
I too fell for that...<BR>
<BR>
- -J2K<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:14:45 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Police Ranks<BR>
<BR>
>From: Dan Roseberry <rosebee@troi.csw.net><BR>
<BR>
>Also, you gotta know that the Vilani did things<BR>
>different from us upstarts; how might they have done <BR>
>things?<BR>
<BR>
That's a good point.  Anyone want to take a crack at<BR>
Vilani-style police organizations?  The underlying<BR>
philosophy would probably emphasize mediation and<BR>
crime prevention over crime-solving and conviction<BR>
rates.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:03:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Sci fi films<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com><BR>
<BR>
>Workers in zero-G had a 'swear box' and had to put in<BR>
<BR>
>a $1  every time they let something drift away.<BR>
<BR>
That's cheap if you've lost a $10,000 gizmo.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>>> Reminds me of that great scene in "Armageddon" <BR>
>>> where the Russian cosmonaut claims he can fix the <BR>
>>> American equipment, ... "American components<BR>
>>> (bash!) Russian components (bash!) all (bash!)<BR>
made<BR>
>>> in (bash) Taiwan! (bash! machine starts up again)"<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> A semi-rational attitude. If you *need* the <BR>
>> equipment, it's not working, and you don't have <BR>
>> "proper" tools or instructions "bashing" it ... <BR>
>> *is* a reasonable response. <BR>
<BR>
>I've found lots of engineering PCs (and non-<BR>
>engineering PCs  too) bash things as a first resort  <BR>
> ...  "Emergency  Repair  Procedure number 1" they <BR>
>call it.  <BR>
<BR>
I've heard it called "percussive maintenance" -- not<BR>
in Traveller, but by real world engineers.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:36:22 -0600<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
Subject: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fi films)<BR>
<BR>
Glenn Goffin wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >> A semi-rational attitude. If you *need* the<BR>
> >> equipment, it's not working, and you don't have<BR>
> >> "proper" tools or instructions "bashing" it ...<BR>
> >> *is* a reasonable response.<BR>
 <BR>
> >I've found lots of engineering PCs (and non-<BR>
> >engineering PCs  too) bash things as a first resort<BR>
> > ...  "Emergency  Repair  Procedure number 1" they<BR>
> >call it.<BR>
 <BR>
> I've heard it called "percussive maintenance" -- not<BR>
> in Traveller, but by real world engineers.<BR>
<BR>
Ah yes, the barbaric "Tap Test", a time-honored tradition among<BR>
engineers, particularly *mechanical* engineers where the tap was<BR>
generally administered with a nice heavy wrench. Eventually, passed on<BR>
to the general public with the widespread use of consumer<BR>
electronics.  <BR>
<BR>
Okay, admit it...how many of you whack the TV/radio/etc with the palm<BR>
of your hand to "encourage" the darn thing to work? <BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:43:14 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Religions<BR>
<BR>
>From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com><BR>
>Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1414<BR>
<BR>
>	[Steve replied]  ObTrav: Is there a list <BR>
>somewhere of the collected religious permutations <BR>
>(or, let's say at least the ones that could be<BR>
>considered mainstream, e.g. more than 1 billion <BR>
>adherents) of the 3I?<BR>
<BR>
I don't know about a list, but it could be compiled. <BR>
I think 1 billion adherents in the Imperium is still a<BR>
cult, although one large enough to be dangerous.  How<BR>
about 1 quadrillion members as the cut-off for<BR>
mainstream?<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:53:06 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fifilms)<BR>
<BR>
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> Okay, admit it...how many of you whack the TV/radio/etc with the palm<BR>
> of your hand to "encourage" the darn thing to work?<BR>
<BR>
The screen on my old monitor would go red from time to time. Slapping it<BR>
actually fixed it. More frequently than not, when dealing with electronics,<BR>
I cajole and / or curse instead of smash.<BR>
<BR>
Although it *works* from time to time.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:06:13 -0500<BR>
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com><BR>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Log 1.15<BR>
<BR>
Derek stopped posting to the tml, but I wanted you guys to know that his<BR>
Play By ICQ game is still going on.<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Derek Stanley" <dstanley@direct.ca><BR>
>To: "Rob Brady" <robb@datatone.com><BR>
>Subject: Re: Log 1.15<BR>
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:57:46 -0800<BR>
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200<BR>
><BR>
> > I hadn't looked at any of your logs since you stopped posting that they<BR>
> > were available to the TML (I think 1.8 was the last). Anyway, I just came<BR>
> > back and the story is really getting interesting. I printed out everything<BR>
> > from 1.8 to 1.17 and have been reading them like a good novel. I am<BR>
><BR>
>I stopped getting the TML.  If you'd like to post that there are updates on<BR>
>my site to the TML I'd be most greatful.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Tardy robber.. Order By Brat.. Tardy Bob ERR.. Retry bad Rob.. Retro by bard<BR>
Robert Brady                                        robb at datatone dot com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 18:04:47 -0600<BR>
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci fifilms)<BR>
<BR>
I used to work in television and video production and our engineers swore by<BR>
DP.<BR>
When a device didn't work as predicted, first apply some Direct Pressure.<BR>
That meant bashing it with what ever was handy, usually a whack with your<BR>
hand or foot and progressing from there.<BR>
The last resort was to actually call the engineer and interrupt his break<BR>
time :)<BR>
<BR>
TV<BR>
- -----Original Message-----<BR>
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net><BR>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 5:55 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Machinery (was Re: Sci<BR>
fifilms)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>From: Eris reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Okay, admit it...how many of you whack the TV/radio/etc with the palm<BR>
>> of your hand to "encourage" the darn thing to work?<BR>
><BR>
>The screen on my old monitor would go red from time to time. Slapping it<BR>
>actually fixed it. More frequently than not, when dealing with electronics,<BR>
>I cajole and / or curse instead of smash.<BR>
><BR>
>Although it *works* from time to time.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 00:43:57 GMT<BR>
From: "tim burt" <canada147@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Inevitability of government failure or revolutions, etc. [longish]<BR>
<BR>
As a Marxist and Democratic Socialist, I often find it amusing to see how <BR>
other people treat Marx as some sort of demigod especially by those who have <BR>
only made a cursory reading of his numerous writings.  For Marx, it must be <BR>
remembered was many things and naturally there will be countless <BR>
interpetations of his work.  But, I must laugh at the attempts that make <BR>
East Europe, Russia or China the prime examples of Marx's thought put into <BR>
action.  Marx would be the first victim of the gulag as were many Marxists <BR>
in those above mentioned countries - for an economy which which relied on <BR>
state-control and primacy given over to the military industrial complex and <BR>
controlled by a small narrow elite was certainly not Marx or what has been <BR>
termed Classical Marxists had in mind.  For Marx, he foresaw the emergence <BR>
of a society based upon freely-associated producers (by which he meant the <BR>
workers would have a stake in running industry or the economy) coupled with <BR>
a dramatic redistribution of the world's net wealth (which he hoped would <BR>
would lead to abolishing one class which was the most numerous in his time <BR>
and ours - the poor thereby making everyone part of the Rich or the <BR>
bourgeoise - fancy french name for the middle class)and prosperous content <BR>
society which would be able to maximize production toward social ends <BR>
(otherwise allow each individual to maximize her or his potential as a human <BR>
being).<BR>
    How does this all relate to Traveller.  Traveller like all other <BR>
cultural artifacts is product of the time in which it was made and out of <BR>
the experiences contained therewithin.  RPGs, including Traveller, were <BR>
created in the aftermath of the American defeat in Vietnam.  Many of the <BR>
creators also served a tour of duty in S.E. Asia so for them a society <BR>
ordered around the military or state service was a natural outgrowth (look <BR>
at how CT had 4/5 of the six "careers" to be in the military and even when <BR>
Citizens came around we had flyers & wet navy etc filling the gaps left my <BR>
the Other - the mysterious outsider akin to the hippie experience for many <BR>
growing up in the 1960s).  Soon Traveller developed an Enemy befitting <BR>
America at that time which were the Zhos or the (Sov)iets.  But, reflecting <BR>
the ever changing world around it Traveller by its flexibility absorbed <BR>
other influences around it.  Trade and Commerce the life-blood of capitalism <BR>
or any other society it seems gained in importance.  Even the "Alternative" <BR>
lifestyle found a niche in the form of the career of the Scouts.  The <BR>
mutations into the other forms of Traveller be it MT, TNE, T4, G:T all <BR>
reflect a fundamental anxiety which is at the heart of American or the <BR>
societies of the West. Which has gripped the Western and now the globe since <BR>
1973 oil crises and the resulting paradigm shift that has occurred as <BR>
Capital went global and asserted it's independence from the nation-state, <BR>
along with other things such as the failures 1968 which led to the formation <BR>
of New Social Movements, etc. As it was expressed by Gramsci when he said,<BR>
	"The crisis consists precisely in the fact the old is dying and the new <BR>
cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms <BR>
appear."<BR>
<BR>
   What that new is?  That is the subject for contestation.  For some it may <BR>
mean good old fashioned values, others it may mean revitalized neocapitalism <BR>
which seeks to dismantle the old welfare state-form and others something <BR>
fundamentally new which goes by the old fashioned name of Socialism (the <BR>
definition of which may be incorporating some of Marx's above stated ideals <BR>
in addition to new challenges).  Without exception if Traveller is to <BR>
survive, it will have to coast along these turbulent waters to remain <BR>
credible to all its fans without choosing one side or another but all the <BR>
time tapping into the ziegest of angst of the time.  Marx's much vaulted <BR>
Stage theory of History was not his creation rather he was following the <BR>
example of English economic historians, like Marx when he was writing <BR>
Capital, saw that societies appear to be individual but go through similar <BR>
stages of development which may abstracted from actual history.  Marx never <BR>
meant this to serve as a master blueprint for the development of humanity <BR>
but rather as a guide for human action to change the world by observing that <BR>
things are not the same as they have always being therefore humanity has the <BR>
ability to change its order.  Marx sought these changes as Social <BR>
Revolutions.  He reasoned that the extension of the franchaise would allow <BR>
in sufficiently democratic countries such as Britain or the United States <BR>
that Socialism could be achieved through the ballot box.  As a consquence, <BR>
Marx did not forsee the collapse of all government but the transformation of <BR>
the State into one where popular will could be exercised without the <BR>
repression that dominated 19th century and much of the third world today <BR>
exercised by the State and Capital.  Therefore, what one is essentially <BR>
taliing about is a different kind of State which has yet to be realized.<BR>
    Traveller canon aknowledges that workers' governments have formed but <BR>
all fall to into decay and decandence.  Which perhaps is due to American <BR>
perception of the Soviet and Chinese experience.  Following those examples <BR>
one would have to agree that Workers' control is doomed but remember Marx <BR>
saw that socialism would have to become a global system much as capitalism <BR>
is today for it to be effective.  What we see in China as we saw in the <BR>
Soviet Union earlier, is a capitalist class emerging from a country which <BR>
remained very much feudal despite the presence of rapid industrialization <BR>
protected by the state.  Much as the English genty began the the enclosure <BR>
movement, thus privatization of state industry is going on now in <BR>
"socialist" countries.<BR>
   The vision of the Far Future provided by Traveller is sufficiently <BR>
diverse to accomodate real socialism on one world.  But, to believe that the <BR>
3I is going to evolve into a socialist state is highly unlikely. As we see, <BR>
in the official and variant timelines, reformers are cast aside.  Impeutus <BR>
will have to come from those who pull the strings which are too much tied <BR>
into existing power structures to want to change the status quo - an irony <BR>
the same quandry that we find ourselves in today as we enter the next <BR>
century.  One should always remember in the 3I that democracy is a <BR>
subversive word that even those who suggest it in the end perish.  The <BR>
situation resembles France before the Revolution however, there still is <BR>
great deal of fluidity between the classes.  So the better analogy is <BR>
America today.  In short, Traveller is what you make it but its twists and <BR>
turns reflect very much the reality of the times in which it was created.  <BR>
It will be interesting to BITS contribution as the British experience of <BR>
combining a "feudal" or inherited wealth-based aristocratic society with a <BR>
dynamic capitalism is long part of the British experience.<BR>
    For those interested in further readings of late 20th century American <BR>
culture from a Marxist perspective.  I would recommend books by Frederick <BR>
Jamerson, Mike Davis, and rather dated Michael Harrington for US readers.  <BR>
For British, E.P. Thompson and much of what came out the Cultural Studies <BR>
Group in Birningham.  Others, not much as Marxism has long been dominated by <BR>
varying centres of influence be it Moscow or Peking or elsewhere.  But, I <BR>
would wholeheartly recomend independent Yugoslav Marxists(part of the Praxis <BR>
group)such as Branko Horvat or Svetozar Stojanovic's:  The Fall of <BR>
Yugoslavia - Why Communism Failed.<BR>
Bogodan<BR>
From the pages of Walter Benjamin:<BR>
...an angel looking as though he is about to move away from something he is <BR>
fixedly contemplating.  His eyes staring, his mouth open, his wings spread.  <BR>
He is the Angel of History.  His face is turned toward the past.  Where we <BR>
can perceive a chain of events, he sees a single catastrophe keeps piling <BR>
wreckage upon wreckage and hurls it in front of his feet.  The Angel would <BR>
like to stay, awaken the dead, and make whole what has been smashed.  But, a <BR>
storm is blowing from Paradise; it has caught in his wings with such <BR>
violence that the angel can no longer close them.  The storm irresistibly <BR>
propels him into the future to which his back is turned, while the debris <BR>
before him are piled skywards.  This storm we call progress.<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 00:48:07 GMT<BR>
From: "Boris Cibic" <kafka47@hotmail.com><BR>
Subject: Lost Kieth Supplements going for 101<BR>
<BR>
I am sure that it has been posted a hundred times but lets make 101.  Could <BR>
anyone tell me how to order the Lost Keith Supplements.  Feel free to email <BR>
back directly.  kafka47@hotmail.com<BR>
thanks<BR>
Boris<BR>
<BR>
______________________________________________________<BR>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1416<BR>
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